The petition for writ of mandate names the Clearlake Redevelopment Agency, KK Raphel Properties LLC of Danville and 25 unidentified individuals.

The suit challenges the city's Feb. 25 certification of a mitigated negative declaration and project approval for the project – to be located at 6820 and 6828 Old Highway 53, on the site of the now-closed Pearce Field airport – and seeks to have the decision set aside.

During the city's consideration of the project, the Sierra Club Lake Group had urged them to conduct a full environmental impact report (EIR) – as had some other community members and leaders, including county Supervisors Rob Brown and Denise Rushing.

“The community deserves a complete EIR,” said Cheri Holden, chair of the Sierra Club Lake Group. “It's just that simple.”

Mike Raphel, one of KK Raphel Properties' principals, said they had no advance notice of the filing, which he called “unfortunate.”

Clearlake City Administrator Dale Neiman was out of town on vacation this week, and Vice Mayor Joyce Overton said the council hasn't been notified of the action yet.

She added that she wasn't surprised by the action. A Sierra Club letter sent to the council during the project consideration led Overton to believe that might be the outcome.

Overton – who had requested an EIR and voted against the mitigated negative declaration but otherwise voted for the project – said she didn't know why the Sierra Club was taking the action, noting it's “not like it's going in tomorrow.”

KK Raphel Properties is proposing to purchase 15 acres of the airport site, where it will build a shopping center with 154,179 square feet, including about 137,000 square feet for a Lowe's home improvement center, plus other commercial tenants including include sitdown and fast food restaurants, as Lake County News has reported.

The Sierra Club alleges that the city violated the California Environmental Quality Act (CEQA) by certifying the mitigated negative declaration in lieu of preparing a full EIR, which the group asserts was required because there is “substantial evidence in the administrative record” that the project will have “numerous significant environmental effects.”

The suit asks that the city's certification of the mitigated negative declaration be set aside, that the effects of the project's approvals be stayed pending the suit's hearings and that the club receive an award of attorney's fees and costs.

Holden said that the suit had to receive approval not just from the Sierra Club Lake Group but from the Redwood Chapter and the state organization.

She said the group felt that the community deserves to see a whole EIR and a complete analysis, along with an indepth study of impacts and mitigations.

However, Raphel said a lot of research already has been done on the project during the three years the city and KK Raphel Properties have worked on it.

Now, he said they'll have to take a look at the suit and speak to Lowe's. The city's plans call for escrow to close on the property by next February.

He said they've been through such suits before, but in this case it's unique, because the city was supportive of the plan, which he said was a top redevelopment goal.

“In the meantime, the financial condition of the city doesn't get any better,” said Raphel, who added, “We got close to the finish line.”

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Typical clueless politician
written by Old Coot, March 27, 2010

"Overton – who had requested an EIR and voted against the mitigated negative declaration but otherwise voted for the project – said she didn't know why the Sierra Club was taking the action, noting it's “not like it's going in tomorrow.”"

Well Joyce, should they wait until concrete is being poured? Why did you vote to approve the project when your other vote a few minutes earlier indicates that an EIR was important. Typical politician, trying to have it both ways; shame on you.

Let's put this project in the trash where it belongs and use the redevelopment money to accomplish what the Vision Task Force came up with: a revitalization of Lakeshore Drive.

Way to go Sierra Club!
written by rtnc, March 27, 2010

If we're going to have a Lowes in that location, let's make sure that it is built in a responsible manner. The dunces on the city council who voted against the E.I.R. as well as the city manager should be replaced.

What do you expect?
written by Dwain, March 27, 2010

In their haste to give the citizen's money away, the Clearlake councilmembers have been led down the path to ruin. Now they will have to obey the law. Aw shucks.

There IS a God!!!!
written by there_it_is, March 27, 2010

YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY Sierra Club! Not a member, but maybe worth following up on. Didn't think they would come to the rescue of a Lake County anything since the vineyards have devastated so much beautiful land like Peringi Rd used to be with it's tall pines and oak and the biggest madrones you ever saw. Now a wasteland of uniformity and agribusiness.

More No Progress
written by swanson16, March 27, 2010

The shake down artists are at it again. Better yet, put in the land trust and completely remove it from the tax rolls.

since when...
written by smurf, March 27, 2010

is breaking the law considered "progress"? This is what happens when the council ingores facts, reason, the law and the citizens in order to make dale and the developer happy! Nice going council, you're broke and now you're getting sued on top of it because you are such a bunch of amateur hoodlems! I'll bet Dale is sending out resumes by Monday morning, which would be the best news the city has had in years!

Now that
written by CobbMt, March 27, 2010

this is on, their clout and money will diminish and they will be unable to mess anything else up. The Judges here are not sympathetic and their holding will surely make them pay Clearlake for a frivolous lawsuit. Then they will be out of money end of game as with maybe 100 members they do not have deep pockets. Back to hiking in the woods and counting bugs. This will be the last hurrah for years.

care to put a large wager on that?
written by smurf, March 27, 2010

the SC doesn't file suits they don't think they can win, and the Redwood chapter has over 10,000 members, they are on VERY solid legal ground. last hurrah? I'll take that bet! The city of Clearlake is the one who should be worried, they're broke and lowes will want nothing to do with a legal mess-adios dale!

For all those who think ...
written by herb, March 27, 2010

...the largest commercial project in the history of Lake County should proceed without an EIR, this might seem frivolous. This lawsuit would have been a non starter,
no matter how unpopular the project might be, if Dale and the council had been willing to do this the right way. EIR's are required by law except when there are clearly no potentially unmitigatged impacts. It has been pointed out that there are several such areas; traffic, archelology and blight just for starters. The CEQA process gives the City an opportunity to protect its own resources through careful study and citizens' imput. In it's haste to sell its own property at a huge loss, the City violated the law by attempting to speed this through without taking the time needed to make sure it won't harm the local environment and economy.
Now a judge will have to decide. If Neiman and the council were smart, they would back down and stipulate to the EIR and avoid the lawsuit. That would shorten the process. Historically, that has not been their style.

What a shame or should I say sham!!
written by lakerealtor, March 27, 2010

Let's hope that this does not kill Lowe's coming into the area but only delays the project. Seems like every time we have a chance to bring our area into the current century someone does something stupid to screw it up. And don't think for a minute the SC doesn't do this sometimes in hopes that the project will go away because of the delay of a suit. I'm sure there's plenty of opportunity for Lowe's elsewhere. Sad thing is an EIR will not tell us anything we don't already know. Herb can say what he wants but this type of project is exactly what the old airport was purchased for and it's zoned for the use. Our zoning ordinance doesn't even require a Use Permit for this use and the land is properly zoned. It would be a little different if we were changing the General Plan designation, zoning, etc as we did with approving the Walmart development--that land had an approved subdivision for manufactured homes/residential use. And let's not forget the significance of the land use change for Kelseyville Lumber, a project that apparently the SC didn't think was significant a land use change to require an EIR!! What most people don't realize are the far reaching negative implications to our community, jobs, etc, and adverse impact this could have on other planned development in the area of the Lowe's project. And as a side let's hope Joyce doesn't get elected as Supervisor!!

My question is
written by bearer, March 27, 2010

The sierra club using funds and lawyers from outside Lake county to affect changes in Lake county.

Are the majority of lake county citizens having decisions made for them funded by out of county special interest groups?

Americans are suffering from high gas prices, high food prices, unemployment and children who have to go without Christmas as a direct result of this outside of the county special interest machine.

At what point do we as Americans stand up to this special interest anti-growth group and say, STOP destroying our country.

When does the will of the radical minority special interest group finally get addressed as being what it is, a radical anti progress movement bent on putting us back in the 1800s and taxed at 75% of our incomes.

"Unfortunate"
written by Walkin, March 27, 2010

Mike Raphel, one of KK Raphel Properties' principals, said they had no advance notice of the filing, which he called “unfortunate.”

How can Mike Raphel say they had no advance notice of the filing, which he terms "unfortunate"? Was he, or his representative, asleep when the Sierra Club presented a very detailed listing of their concerns and their demand that the law be followed re a full EIR? Did he think that if they got the city council to ram this project through sans an EIR, that the Sierra Club and concerned citizens, would tuck in their collective tails and slink away?
What's "unfortunate" is the attitude of the city manager and the city council. Their curt rudeness to Clearlake citizens, who turned out in droves to speak their minds about this Lowes project, was amazing. They set themselves above the people and their very rudeness alienated and divided. There was no apparent attempt on their part at forming a WE/US--there was their WE/YOU divide. Simple civility, and an attempt at bringing the community into the process, was sacrificed and those concerned Lake County citizens left the meetings angry, combative and disgusted. Of course a lawsuit followed! All the suit seeks is that the laws be followed.
Had they approached this the right way from the get go, and made an attempt at forming consensus, and had they followed the law, they would not now be facing this law suit and the additional drain on the city's non-existent treasury, and Mike Raphel would not be finding it "unfortunate".

WOW
written by bearer, March 27, 2010

The special interest group is also causing a lake county town to spend taxpayer money that could be used for police, fire, or the streets to be used defending a frivilous time consuming lawsuit.

We can all see how The Sierra club is interested in the safety and well being of Clearlake residents.

Think clearly and count to ten.
written by CobbMt, March 27, 2010

the Tea Baggers v. Tree Huggers. Funny how folks get worked up over this but not taking side in political contests. No matter what the lawsuit is, it gets decided by our own Judges, in my last count all appointed by Republican Governors.

This is not San Francisco. This is not a hard one, as similar lawsuits in Sonoma have not stopped Lowes or Home Depot. Only slowed down the inevitible. Lowes can buy an existing store, like K Mart or defunct shopping centers, like done in Sonoma with the buy out of Yardbirds, and avoid the EIR. Piedmont would front a shrunken Home Depot or Lowes, and if I were to bet - even Kelseyville Lumber would sell out for the right price. Economics is real and all the hardware stores will do a cost benefit analysis and sell - or die.

The Sierra Club in my mind is not in tune with most Californians as evedenced especially in Lake where the Sierra Club backed candidates are usually not the winner. Comstock won over Le Fever and Brown won over Stark.

Law suits are expensive and it is hard to beat City Hall. Look at the Geysers pipeline which went through an Audobon Preserve. Look at Warm Springs Lake Sonoma. This is a stall, and I stand by my belief that there are less Sierra Club members in Lake than even at best 300. Out of 65K, that makes them .0046 percent of the population. The numbers are all about visibility and activism, not political power or this would not be an issue.

If 300 people want something that is not very significant. And that is a fact.
The strong emotions are just that, and looking at this clearly - puts this into focus.

And that is politics. And lawyers are more a problem in this State, as evidenced by this action. The laws have changed and the losing party must pony up legal fees when lost. Fact. But do not let the facts get in the way of activism, as why the emotions.

Let's talk about this on 88.1 FM today at 5PM....
written by herb, March 27, 2010

I don't know how many members the SC has in Lake County. But there are certainly a good number of Lake County people opposed to the project and a lot more who may not be against the project but want to see an EIR and to see the developer pay his own way. As I said, a project this size should always have an EIR and if the City would have just not tried to shortcut the process, they could have saved themselves time, money and embarrassment.
If the Sierra Club is an "outside" organization despite their local membership, than how about the developer whose only forays into our county have been to push this project and who has not other interest in Clearlake other than that?
This lawsuit will be the topic of my radio show today at 5PM on KPFZ 88.1 FM. I invite everyone on all sides of the issue to phone in and discuss it. I will put you on the air if you call 263-3435.

CobbMt
written by bearer, March 27, 2010

I was not aware that this was a gay versues treehugger discussion.

The bottom line here is interests from outside of Lake county is being spent to take our local taxes out of the repair of our streets and police and fire protection.

We always ask why certain things are not done for us in Lake County. Lets look at how many Lawsuits and how many hours of public attorney time is spent defending things like this.

How many $100,000s of thousands of dollars has this special interest group cost us on lawsuits over the last 20 years?

Herb, I agree the developer should be responsible for paying everything directly related to the project. Street improvements included. Hook up fee for sewer. All fair. But that is not the Sierra Clubs issue.

The Sierra Club maintains a permission web page on the internet defining what projects they will allow. I am sorry, but that sounds more like an organization bent on harrassment than actually addressing potential problems.

Add to that they have special groups they leave alone. Does anyone remember the Winery down Middletown way? They love wine growers, and guess what the majority of wine growers contribute to the Sierra clubs favorite political party.

The SC's members..
written by herb, March 27, 2010

define what their issues are and whether thy like winegrowers, golf courses or department stores or endorse particular candidates. The members vote about these things just like any political advocacy organization.
The lawsuit demands an EIR and I think that is a reasonable thing to ask for.
SC opposed the Provinsalia project but filed no lawsuit because an EIR was done and the SC legal staff thought there was not sufficient legal grounds to prevail.
Without the SC, the group that opposes this project, and it is a large group, would no have the means to take on the billionaire developer or the City in demanding an EIR.

How many lawsuitsof this kind has the SC club filed in Lake County?
written by herb, March 27, 2010

This is the first one I can remember. If you know of hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on these lawsuits....name some.

You go get that darn tree
written by Donna Christopher, March 27, 2010

hugger Rob Brown bearer - set him straight!

...
written by bearer, March 27, 2010

Let us ask Victoria Brandon or whoever is in charge to make an appearance and tell us publicly if the Sierra Club has ever been involved in Lawsuits, filings of injunction or any other legal matter that involved public employees spending time and money defending actions taken by the Sierra club against any public entity incorporated in the County of Lake over the past 20 years.


In the meantime, enjoy what the sierra club is costing the state in litigation.

http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-a=sp1001da90&sp-x-1=collection&sp-q-1=National&sp-p=all&sp-t=site_wide&sp-q=lawsuits

Donna Donna, I hug my trees in my yard every year when I prune them.

You made the allegation bearer...
written by herb, March 27, 2010

so you tell us about the money the Sc club has cost us here in Lake County. It is not for Victoria to unprove but for you to prove.

...
written by bearer, March 27, 2010

You know I can't get into the courthouse on a weekend so I was offering the Sierra Club a chance to come clean and be honest.

I also know you are not niave enough to believe this is the first legal action taken by the Sierra Club in Lake County in 20 years.


Ill do a FOIA on all matters related to the Sierra Club if that is the can of worms you want me to open up.

Keep the bums out!!
written by lakerealtor, March 27, 2010

I say we ask the SC memebers to quit shopping in Clearlake if they don't like what we're doing. Even Herb lives in Lower Lake I think?--so take your politics and your no growth attitude where it might be wanted; We need jobs, sales tax revenues, real estate taxes, dollars added to the Redevelopment Agency Lowe's and other new projects will generate; some positive momentum in this community! Common we're talking about putting a Lowe's on an old airport; a piece of rocky dust land with no significance, archeologically, historically or otherwise in its current condition!! What better place to put it?? And the comments from SC at hearings were nothing but smoke screens leading to the suit they planned to file. Traffic was studied. Archeology was studied years ago on this site and there was nothing found when the water park was constructed; most of this project is on FILL which certainly will not turn up anything of significance. BLGHT? Clearlake is blight and it's time to move forward with something that will generate a lot of good in this community. The developer WILL pay his own way. AND WHY does a project this size ALWAYS needa an EIR; look at the purpose of an EIR, look at what was studied without an EIR--THERE IS NO NEED FOR AN EIR IN THIS CASE!!! And if I can get 88.1FM on my radio I'll call in.

Herb's "just for starters"
written by dano, March 27, 2010

Your "just for starters" points are clearly your primary opposition so let's discuss them.
1) Blight. If you'd like to see blight go over and look at the planned area and you'll see years worth of blight. How is a brand new development to be considered in the same category?
2) Traffic. Of course there will be more traffic, that's the plan. The walmart has a number of businesses and I still have no problem negotiating the stoplights for a cheeseburger. This isn't a large development in comparison to big cities, what traffic hazards could pose a significant problem for hwy. 53?
3) Architecture. I'm not sure if this is the same developer as the whole foods mall I visited in Napa but I spent 10 minutes just looking for a parking space. I've heard the development they did in ferndale was classy for their victorian area and done on budget. Herb, your belly's gonna love the vegetarian treats from the Fresh & Easy store that's supposed to follow.
4) selling the property at a huge loss. Is this really the case? I believe they've sold different chunks of the property, including the water park, over time and have probably already recouped their investment. They're even retaining other parcels for future sale.
Instead of preaching to the choir at the coffee shop, go down to City Hall, grab the cards of the 4 members in favor of the development and voice your comments and concerns. They're not an elitist bunch that's untouchable. They have home phone #'s and will gladly talk about the pros and cons. As a Lakeshore Drive business owner I've done this, including Dale who was happy to break with a busy day to answer all my questions. I've been unable to unearth any conspiracy, just 5 people that feel that this in the best interest of the future of Clearlake. I've known the 4 council members for years, they've shopped with me on numerous occasions and have always expressed their intent to improve Clearlake.
To me, the Sierra Club looks like another level of bureaucracy, the antithesis of their charter. Hopefully, they're efforts are quashed.

Herb
written by bearer, March 27, 2010

You said you are not a member of the Sierra Club.

I am curious how you know the inner workings and administrative actions taken by them if you are not an advocate for them?

You know more about how they operate than the average citizen who was a disinterested party.

Victoria stand on the highway
written by WAYNE CHATOFF, March 27, 2010

Victoria why don't you stand on the highway and let me run over you. Ever since you moved to this county you have been against every major project that would improve the life of this dead county. You don't volunteer to help anyone,except to complain about progress. Maybe Lowe's will decide to go to Williams or Ukiah and we can spend our tax dollars in another county. We need to keep the blight in Clearlake, what else is the town good for every county needs a slum for the low life's. Why would the Sierra Club want progress and try to improve the town? A new project like this might kill a cockroach. Maybe we can put those cockroaches in her trailer in Lower lake.

As far as Rob Brown goes he is just trying to protect kelseyville Lumber which is in his district. I would continue shopping there if I lived in that area, but it is to far to drive.

Denise Rushing, well she has not done anything in her district that wasn't already started by Gary Lewis. She bragged about her Natural Walnut orchard in upper Lake, which is dead trees and her previous expierences. Well she should keep her big nose out of Clearlake trying to get ahead. God I hope we don't have another 4 years of her anti-growth, she also should go back to the Bay Area.

Geez Wayne, harsh much?
written by konoctibill, March 27, 2010

Proposing to harm someone over a big box store is over the top. You might want to try some yoga or meditation to work on that stress.
The Lowe's project has not been approached in a method designed for success and as a result it is finding many obstacles. The Sierra club is perfectly within its rights to use the law to force the city to observe the laws regarding development - just as would be any other citizen or citizen's group. Their opposition is to the complete lack of investigation as to the economic and environmental impacts of the project. This is a land of laws and that is what the law prescribes under CEQA.
If you don't like the laws then your problem is with government, not with the Sierra Club. I imagine that if you were to make your 'let me run you over' comment to an elected official you would find yourself in a heap o' trouble.

If this were my build project
written by bearer, March 27, 2010

I would subpoena the names of Lake county Sierra club members as of Jan 1 2010 into evidence and look for any ties to any business that might be financially affected.

These things are always about the money.

There is no other reason for this much objection to a shopping center.

EIR
written by tyler lee, March 27, 2010

The purpose of the EIR is to know what we're doing before we do it. Not too hard to grasp. For my part I bless the Sierra Club for carrying our water for us: we wouldn't need their intervention if more of our citizens could free themselves up from this ideology that all growth is good and "development" is sacred, even when it trashes the community. TJ

And I thought
written by kd006, March 27, 2010

Joseph McCarthy died in 1957 but the spirit lives on!

bearer writes:
"I would subpoena the names of Lake county Sierra club members as of Jan 1 2010 into evidence and look for any ties to any business that might be financially affected."

Just LC Sierra Club members or are we going after the Farm Bureau & Food Collectives too? Heck lets get a list of Boy & Girl scouts while we are at it!

Can they plead the 5th or will a confession be waterboarded out of them?

I just love a meltdown!

...
written by CobbMt, March 27, 2010

This project is in the City of Clearlake. The local environmental folks do not have any standing in Clearlake. If they did and had local support in Clearlake they could elect a city government that would meet there goals.

The local elected folks voted for the project.

Outside agitators have bet on a law suit. So what. This is a page out of the Not in My Back Yard Book.

The corporate suits will file the paper and Lowes will be built. Wal Mart was built over the same objections.

Now what has the local environmental group done over the slash and burn vineyard development. What has been done about the waste water being pumped into the Geysers at over 6 million gallons a day.

What has been done to mitigate septic tanks near Clear Lake. And agricultural spraying by vineyard and orchard development. What has been done to curtail the slash and burn dope growing and water diversion.

What is done is little to save Lake and Clear Lake. What really is the cost of travelling to Ukiah and Santa Rosa for most products that Lake does not have. Ever try to buy anything nice here in Lake except out of a catelog and delivered by UPS or Fed Ex.

Ever try to get a heart bypass here or anything major medically. How about anything.

The only foks that make anything out of a lack of Lowes or Home Depot are the private owners. This folks I have heard do not pay good living wages with decent health benefits and retirement. There is no road to advancement in the hardware business in Lake unless you are connected to the non union businesses.

The only good jobs in Lake are in State Government and Medical professionals and Federal employment. There are no unions in Casinos. Look how many folks commute to Napa Ukiah and Santa Rosa.

This Lowes will save people money to buy better food and housing. It will help the working family. And competion is what Lake needs to grow, not parochial business.

Part of the main
written by Walkin, March 27, 2010

Wayne Chatoff is way out of line with his personal assaults on those who think differently then he. Let's keep our comments civil and focused on issues and leave out personal invective.

A letter writer to a local newspaper suggested that, ". . . Supervisor Rushing devote her time with issues in her district and our city council will handle ours." The reality is that Supervisor Rushing, as a county leader, has every right to consider and comment on the Lowes project since, by the very nature of her job, she must take the macro-view of what is best for all of Lake County's 58, 000 * residents. Clearlake does not live in a bubble independent of Lake County--the city is a part of the main. This project will have a dramatic impact on all of Lake County, not just the 13,000 * living in the incorporated City of Clearlake. (* 2000 census figures).

I see I struck the nerve
written by bearer, March 27, 2010

kd006 has just shown us all the sierra Club is from her point of view could be afraid of the light of a public viewing.

Does an honest man fear standing in judgement in a court of law?

Why would they be afraid to have any of their members names put on the public record if they have a spouse or cousin or any other member of the family that stands to profit financially from stopping the Lowes shopping complex.

Aren't the citizens entitled to an open and fair process when the public entity they live under is sued by a private enterprise?

KD006, an honest court filing has nothing to fear in a court of law.

Enterprise?
written by kd006, March 27, 2010

I. The name of the corporation is Sierra Club.

II. This corporation is a nonprofit public benefit corporation and is not organized for the private gain of any person. It is organized under the Nonprofit Public Benefit Corporation Law for public and charitable purposes.

The said association is made and the said corporation is formed, not for pecuniary profit. No part of the assets or net earnings of this corporation shall be distributed to or shall inure to the benefit of any member, officer or director; provided, however, that payment of reasonable compensation for services rendered and expenses incurred may be made.

III. The purposes of the Sierra Club are to explore, enjoy, and protect the wild places of the earth; to practice and promote the responsible use of the earth's ecosystems and resources; to educate and enlist humanity to protect and restore the quality of the natural and human environment; and to use all lawful means to carry out these objectives.

IV. This corporation shall have perpetual existence.

V. The said corporation has and shall have, no Capital Stock.

VI. The corporation elects to be governed by all of the provisions of the Nonprofit Public Benefit Law not otherwise applicable to it under Part 5 of Division 2 of Title 1 of the California Corporations Code.

KD006
written by bearer, March 27, 2010

The Sierra Club is sueing the public at large (Clearlake)to stop construction.

The sierra club is not the government (yet)

The charter may say it is non profit. However, it is entirely possible that the members within this non profit could stand to gain financially from the SC blocking the project.

It is within the rights of the citizens who have to bear the cost of this litigation to know if any persons in the SC membership can or will gain financially from this action.

My point is the public (private citizens) has every right to protection from litigation where a potential conflict of interest may be occuring and further the private citizens should have financial recourse to include fines if it can be proven that the suit was filed with knowledge that the conflict existed prior to filing.

This all has nothing to do with the intended charter of the SC.

Clarification
written by kd006, March 27, 2010

Suing the 'public at large'? Funny I was not served, they are suing the redevelopment agency and ~25 yet to be named people. Does not sound like a attack on the good citizens of Clearlake to me. Did you listen to the show tonight on KXPZ at 5? Seems there are 35 Sierra Club members in all of Clearlake and about 400 county wide. WOW they must have real clout to have pulled off this conspiracy (well in your mind).

Oh and no I am not a member of the SC conspiracy.

beaqrer....I am not a s.c. member as I said but...
written by herb, March 27, 2010

it is no secret how advocacy groups work. Their by laws are public. Their mission is posted on their website. I study law and politics and I am particularly interested in these issues. And because i have a radio show, I especially want to know what I am talking about so as to avoid being publicly stupid and embarrassing myself. (I know I am not always successful at that.)
The Sierra Club is no different from the Farm Bureau, the NRA, the Right to Life, or any of the other groups that are advocating a particular point of view using lawyers, lobbyists, voter drives, or any legal means. That's how the game works.
There are a bunch of lawsuits against the Obama health care bill questioning its constitutionality and trying to get it repealed through the courts. My guess is you don't object to these actions or complain about the money they will cost the taxpayers to defend against that could be better spent on other things.
This system works both ways. If there was a County GMO ban and the Farm Bureau filed a lawsuit, we probably wouldn't hear a peep of protest out of you.
Everyone knows about the Sierra Club and the other tree huggers like me who want locally owned businesses to thrive and big box stores to stay out of here. So you'd better do everything by the book if you want to bring some corporation from North Carolina here to put our local stores out of business. Do an EIR. Mitigate the things that the law says you have to. Pay your own way. Do it right and give the locals a chance to have some input.
If you try to get away with such blatant illegal tactics as a bogus negative declaration like this one, we will take you to court and probably win and you'll have to do the EIR anyway.

KD006
written by bearer, March 27, 2010

When the Sierra club sued the city of clearlake they sued the citizens. What else is a city other than the citizens who pay taxes and live there? Those citizens are the public at large of the city of Clearlake that have to pay the bill to defend against the Sierra club.

SO the Sierra club is sueing the citizens of Clearlake at large.

I am looking from the perspective of the well being of citizens who are being sued in their govenment body and raising the question of are there conflicts of interest or is the Sierra Club without bias relating to the personal financial gains of any of its members.

I think it is a legitimate question to ask and have answered. The Sierra Club is attacking the citizens of Clearlake and causing the City to lose tax dollars that could be used repairing the streets or paying for mpore police protection.

Sueing the city of Clearlake is not an innocent action and the citizens of Clearlake are suffering a money loss by the Sierra Clubs actions.

My position is on the side of the good people of Clearlake who lose services while the Sierra Club postures and causes financial losses.

You are taking the position of the Sierra club with complete disregard for the financial losses you are incurring on the citizens of Clearlake.

herb
written by bearer, March 27, 2010

My friend, do you recall the days of our youth when we stood up against the tyrannical machine?

Do you remember how we questioned authority?

Do you remember how we said we would never fall into the trap of our parents?

Guess what, I still question authority. I question the system that is the power.

You my friend have become part of the machine that is the power. I have not.

you don't have to get into the courthouse on the weekend bearer...
written by herb, March 27, 2010

Take your time. The courthouse will be open at 8 am Monday morning. Go there and back up you allegation that Sierra Club lawsuits in Lake County have cost taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars. In fact, find another lawsuit filed in Lake County against a government entity by the Sierra Club...we'll wait. And I know that if you can't find anything to back up your statement, you will admit that you were wrong because you are an intellectually honest guy and want the discourse to be fair even if it proves that your allegations against the Sierra Club are completely false. Right?

The" machine that is the power" is in the eye of the beholder..
written by herb, March 27, 2010

I stand up against what I perceive to be wrong... be it George Bush, Barack Obama, Dale Neiman or anyone else. I do it in these blogs. I do it on the school board. I do it on the radio.
It is silly to frame yourself as the rebel and me as the guy who goes along with the program. You question the authority that you think needs questioning and so do I.
We just have different ideas about who that might be.
Nice try though.

Herb
written by bearer, March 27, 2010

the progressive movement, you know the people that control California and banckrupted us?

Tell me that you do not vote party line year after year to put these people in power.

Tell me you do not advocate taking more of the Publics money for government.

At this point in Californias history, the people that have destroyed the states economy are the people you advocate for.

You are part of the destructive side of the state. Heck, even your school budget is screwed due to the graft of the progressives eating the kids money along the way.

Progressive chased business and our tax base out of state with high taxes and overbearing enviormment laws.

MTBE supposed to save us, turned out worse then leaded. ECo light bulbs that fill our lungs with mercury when they explode in their sockets.

The system is being run into the ground and you are clapping for the Sierra Club as they bring hardship on a poor poverty town in a poverty ridden county. Some big accomplishment when you applaud stealing services from poor communities.

herb
written by bearer, March 28, 2010

In both situations, I asked a question about the money.

The proper response should have been a response from The Sierra Club representitive that none or whatever amount was spent. I phrased my statement as a question.

Please go and read it, and notice there is a question mark at the end of the sentence.

Intellectually honest. Your answer is in black and white with a question mark in the original form as posed earlier.

Don't know what rock
written by kd006, March 28, 2010

you have been hiding under 'bearer' but the city does not represent the people in Clearlake. It is the 'World according to Dale' in case you missed the point. At no point were the citizens asked the question 'what is the best use of the airport property', Dale spent three years hiding the negotiations from everyone as he plotted this out. Yes I am outraged by it all but NOT at the people working to either stop it or at least have a good basis for allowing the project to move forward. I am PO'd that this was sprung with a very short lead time last December, can't see why that is a suprise as that is how things are done here.

What is the hurry? Is having a full EIR going to kill the project? Seems so, Lowes is not the enemy, our own beloved Dale is and his Danville developer buddies. Lowes didn't come to us, KK Raphel Properties' did and have been pushing for a Home Depot, Lowes etc.

That my 'friend' is the point, this was all backroom dealings as you might recall, lots of the Clearlake Council and the BOS were blindsided by this when it first was made public by King Dale.

How about some light manufacturing here, less traffic and more wages and profits.

Sorry you are too blind to see what this will do.

Really what district are you from, seems you have a beef with D-3 so why put your nose in Clearlake?

this affects my shopping choices
written by bearer, March 28, 2010

and makes it in my interest to have a choice.

Clearlake citizens will have to foot the bill by way of lost services if the multi million dollar Sierra Club brings its full brunt of money and power against the Clearlake citizens.

We have a super powerful and rich national Sierra Club versus a poor community of elderly and working poor families. Talk about evil corporations.

How much more evil is there than attacking a poor community in an economically depressed area during a major recession.

Blame game:
written by tyler lee, March 28, 2010

Sure, let's play it: there's enough to go around...
California experienced it's peak of prosperity in the 1950's, when good ol' Pat Brown was governor, and taxation was at an all-time high. Flush times. Since then a series of Republic Party governors, Prop. 13, and a reactionary minority in the Leg. have reduced taxes and accomplished a piecemeal destruction of "progressive" programs.
Of course, that's just history, easily trumped by ideology...
If your goal is corporate dominance of our economy, with every one of us paying "rent" on our lives (like good serfs!), rest assured you are winning. Fascism is in the offing, the republic is a dead letter, and our owners and masters are securely in the saddle. But some of us will not go gentle into that good night... Lawsuits?! You ain't seen nothin' yet.

WHO CREATES JOB?
written by WAYNE CHATOFF, March 28, 2010

Has the Sierra Club ever created a local job?
How many projects in Lake County have they stopped that would create jobs?
Do they pay taxes?
Have they donated any time to help the people and government of Lake County to move out of a low income slum area, where we have more pot stores than any other business?

CORPORATIONS ARE PEOPLE, they create jobs, create services outside their business, provide consumable items for households, and save money for people by buying and selling in volume. If you are living on a fixed income you want to buy products as low as you can so you can spend money on other needs. This county is full of poor people needing help fixing up their homes.

We had an airport on this site for many years. An airport which I enjoyed using and never should have been shut down. Know all we have is a piece of UGLY DIRT. Why would anyone in their right mind want to stop a nice new shopping area from going in there. Maybe we just need more trailers and pot houses. This county needs to move forward, getting rid of the slums and get our local governments on the track to making money so we can get better roads and services for the local people.

bearer you'd have to admit
written by herb, March 28, 2010

that your question about how many hundreds of thousands of dollars the Sierra Club has cost the Lake County taxpayers due to lawsuits, implied an answer.
Most would read it as a rhetoric question. You even demanded that Victoria prove that it wasn't true.
A more honest way to frame a real question would have been: "Has the Sierra Club ever filed a lawsuit against a Lake County government before?" When you ask how many hundreds of thousands of dollars they have cost us, you imply that they have cost is at least two hundred thousand dollars. Now c'mon bearer. You know you were just making an assumption and trying to pass it off as fact. Why not just cop to it and move on? We'll for give you.

ll those "facts" you claim bearer...
written by herb, March 28, 2010

...about the progressives being in power and bankrupting the state are your opinions and open to debate to say the very least.
Bearer saying it does not make it true.

wayne says corporations are people...
written by herb, March 28, 2010

that tells us a lot.
So how many corporations are in jail for securities fraud?

bearer asks
written by herb, March 28, 2010

"Why would they be afraid to have any of their members names put on the public record?"

Pretty ironic from a guy who won't even identify himself on this blog.

Closed airport
written by Walkin, March 28, 2010

"We had an airport on this site for many years. An airport which I enjoyed using and never should have been shut down." Wayne Chatoff--

As a matter of history, and I was there, the airport was shut down to accommodate another out-of-state, big-box store--WalMart.

Where WalMart proposed building was on the approach for take offs and landings at Pierce Field. A FAA map of airplane accidents, published by a local paper at the time of the closure debates, showed the majority of take off and landing accidents happened where now there are fast-food restaurants, a grocery store and WalMart. Out of county big box wanted it; something had to give; the city gave--bye-bye airport. Several local businesses housed at Pierce field were closed due to this decision. History!

herb
written by bearer, March 28, 2010

1. fact, the state is bancrupt and billions in debt. Progressives have controlled the money for 20 plus years.

2. fact, I am not sueing a collective group of citizens that will incure financial hardship on those citizens.

3. fact, your response implied I was stating it as fact and I responded a request for clarification from the SC leaders.

4. fact. A small selfish group is manipulating the system they put in place to slow Lake county from becoming a self sufficient county with an good tax base and a solid employment base and a healthy local economy.

5. fact The SC members want Clearlake citizens to waste valuable tax dollars on the SC rather than improving public safety.

Just because you say "fact" before each statement doesn't make it anything more than you opinion...
written by herb, March 28, 2010

1. the state has had non-progressive governors, prop 13 that prevents the state from taxing major corporations for the actual value of their property since 1978, and the largest prison population in the civilized world...if you think none of that has contributed to the state's financial situation you are wrong. California does not have "progressive" economic policies.
2. Many citizens believe that the Lowe's project will cause long term disasterous economic effects to the City and therefore more hardship. The City has bankrupted itself during the tenure of the current city council and many are grateful to be represented in stopping this project.
3. You know that you believed that the SC has cost Lake County taxpyers hundreds of thousands of dollars in lawsuits and tried to imply that it was true. You were wrong and now don't have the cajones or honest to admit it.
4. It it a large group...half or more or the citizenry that believes these kinds of projects will cost the city more than they generate. That has been proven true in thousands of cities that have tried the big box road to prosperity. It has been proven here by the blight caused in downtown Clearlake by Wal-Mart. You may disagree but that doesn't make those who don't want this project "selfish."
5. The City violated the law by not requiring an EIR. They wasted their own money trying to get away with it. Now they can allow an EIR and not waste any money dtying to prevent one. That would stop the lawsuit in its tracks and the devleoper would have to pay for the EIR and not the City. In the end the court will order an EIR anyway so it is the city wasting its own money in fighting it.
Factfactfactfactfactfactfactfactfactfact: there... that proves everything I just said is true.

...
written by bearer, March 28, 2010

1. Fact. I thought you were part of the education system. Please do not mislead people by saying the governer does the budget. The legislative branch is responsible for the state budget. A govener only requests a budget. Be honest.

2. The ambiguios many, are using a powerful multi national multimillion dollar corporation against the poor and working class tax paying citizens of a small economicaly depressed town in the height of a massive recession.

3. You reframed what I stated in your response and I responded.

4. Again your making up the amount of people to claim people they hate to shop anywhere you disagree with.

5. The Sierra Club wants the citizens of Clearlake to spend public safety money that can be used to fill potholes and hire police to discover that traffic will increase. Give us all a break. This posturing is all about slowing progress down and cauusing the city to spend money.


Let me ask any SC advocate to answer. What question do you want answered in an EIR that a second grader with two wits of common sense couldnt tell you?

More cars mean more traffic.

Poop and water flows downhill.

What do you want to know that has not been answered?

Bearer:
written by Old Coot, March 28, 2010

I'm a tea party kinda guy who is a SC advocate simply because the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

I want to know about how much more blight along Lakeshore Drive and Olympic Drive (the heart of our dying city) will be caused by this project. How many more boarded-up storefronts will this cause. How many more business owners (like me) will simply give up and leave this fetid area.

I want to know the truth (not Dale Neiman's version of it) about how many real new jobs will be created, a number which must factor in the loss of jobs caused by the Lowe's center. My guess is that the net increase will be very small if any. But whatever the facts, we need to know them up front.

Redevelopment money...our money...is being squandered to entice this project. It is not being used for it's lawful purpose, i.e., to redevelop our city's heart. Look at any nearby community...Middletown, Upper Lake, downtown Lakeport, Kelseyville, etc. and compare what they've done to restore their center-city. And then drive down Lakeshore Drive to see what our elected officials and their city manager have done here.

Coot
written by bearer, March 28, 2010

I can understand the frustration of having a run down part of town. This has come after years of neglect on the publicity front. Clearlake has an image problem. Property values are lower because of the image problem.

What I see in this picture is the town officials trying to figure out how to reinvent the city and pull in a bigger tax share. The city of Clearlake is looking out for the citizens in the community and their best interest.

What viable options do they have? They have one major artery, highway 29. They have one developed corner with a major draw to both the town locals and around the county shoppers. Every tax dollar spent is a part of the tax structure of Clearlake. They compete with Lakeport for county Tax dollars.

So you have to ask yourself a question. Is the town of Clearlake going to make itself stronger and more able to provide for its own citizens by going after a new readily accessable shopping complex or pouring money into an area where there is very little traffic.

This is about Clearlake surviving and prospering and competing with Lakeport and maybe even Ukiah.

The Sierra Club is conducting a full on attack against the growth of Clearlake and the worse part about it is they are just manipulating and causing delays and expense on other people. They are not concerned whether Clearlake is a health city with a good tax base to develop from. The SC is only interested in a cause.

As a businessman I would be looking at where the money is going and how do I go about getting my piece of the pie.

so there you have it bearer...
written by herb, March 28, 2010

your opinions....my opinions. not provable facts but debatable points.
You say I make up the numbers. I say you make up much of what you state in here as facts.
That's the way it goes. Nobody has an exclusive claim to the "facts." Certainly not you no mater how many times you write the word fact before your bogus claims.

so now bearer knows...
written by herb, March 28, 2010

what is in the hearts and minds of the Sierra Club members and what they want and don't want. He knows their motives. And if he says so you can be sure it's true. He knows they don't care about the health of Clearlake and that the big box store proponents do. He doesn't even know the number of the highway that runs through the town but he knows what's good for the town and it is Lowe's. And if you think the downtown should be developed instead you are "selfish," you "don't care," and you are "against growth." So if you want to be on the side of good and not evil, believe everything that bearer says you should believe which is the same as what the Clearlake City Council says you should believe. Remember bearer "questions authority."

facts facts
written by dano, March 28, 2010

Herb, I would disagree with a couple of your fact assertions, one that this city council has bankrupted the city. It's my opinion that when the economic wheels were chugging years ago, the federal, state and unfortunately our city handled their budgets like times would always be flourishing. Now we're paying for their misjudgment. This city has cut the budget to the bare bones with Dale taking on many other functions, closing a day a week, firing needed positions, etc.
I don't buy your assertion that walmart caused our blight as I've visited too many towns and cities that do just fine with a walmart & et al. in their backyard.
There's an encyclopedia of traffic studies on a future project there so the EIR is more or less a non issue for me. I'd agree it's the SC just posturing. I'm not convinced you're even concerned about the EIR itself. If Lowe's decides this is the last straw & Clearlake's too political I think you'd consider it a success for your position, a crying shame for those of us who think Clearlake desperately needs the opportunities. If Lowe's is required to and follows through with it we both win. If an EIR determines unmitigatable circumstances I'll owe you a pat on the back. If it does derail this project, good luck finding another suitor that wants to deal with our bureacracy.
On a final note, great job old coot with all you've done to improve your property and the quality of Lakeshore Dr. I've made a substantial investment on my property as I believe in this community and truly love it here. As opposed to waiting for the city to do it for us, it sure would be nice to see other owners follow suit and improve the look of Lakeshore Dr.
On a final note, this is democracy at it's finest and while I've done my best to failingly comprehend the other side, the spirited debate is another major plus I find about living here.

Bearer
written by Old Coot, March 28, 2010

My piece of the pie was to have at least some of that redevelopment money used to rehabilitate Lakeshore Drive with curbs, gutters, sidewalks, landscaping, etc. as was promised by the city in their "Vision Task Force" report. I was an idiot for trusting them to follow through and keep their promises. I went ahead and spend over $200K of my money..a huge chunk of my retirement fund...to rebuild most of our cottages (Jules Resort) install new floating docks, etc.

I'm not the only business owner who was lied to, and yes, I was a fool for trusting those weasels. The Lowe's center may very well be a good long-term source of a relatively small amount of tax revenues, but it will never be enough to revive the downtown area in my lifetime. We're on life support right now and many of us won't survive.

Lake Escape Resort: Closed. The Highlands Inn: Closed. The Lamplighter Motel: Closed with furnishings being sold this weekend. Tourists come here and are appalled at what they see on Lakeshore Drive. Many ask me if it's safe to venture out at night to find a restaurant or buy some fishing tackle. Many of those folks will never return and they will tell their friends and neighbors what they saw.

Here's my solution: Use half the $7M redevelopment money to cure the sewage issues at the 53/old 53 area to allow new development. Then tell Lowe's to come if they want, but they've got to do the EIR and pay their own way...just like I would have to do. Then use the other half of the redevelopment money to start restoring the downtown area. Curbs, gutters, sidewalks, landscaping etc. Provide low-interest loans or matching grants to business owners for immediate rehab of their businesses. With programs like that in operation, outside investors will get the message that it's OK to do business here. They will buy and begin to rehabilitate the vacant stores and vacant land...like next to Don's Bait and across the street from my business. Tell me why that idea wouldn't work. Think of the jobs rebuilding this area..using local contractors. Think Lowe's will use local contractors? Not a chance.

You've seen towns...
written by herb, March 28, 2010

but extensive studies have been done about the effect of big box stores on small towns. You should read them. Why are you so hot for Lowe's anyway? They don't offer anything that's not already for sale in Clearlake by locally owned businesses.
I have been here since 1977. I don't recall the Clearlake economy "chugging along." after wal mart. I do remember 2 stationary stores. 2 locally owned tire shops, 2 more furniture stores, 2 more local pharmacies, a toy store, a clothing store, a shoe store and a sporting goods store that have all closed their doors.
When Super Wal Mart opens (next on the city's council's agenda) you will see Rays and Food's etc. close within a year or two. The little Mexican groceries will survive because of community loyalty. Safeway will survive because it is big enough. The co-op will survive because it is unique and provides something for a particular niche.

Dan
written by Old Coot, March 28, 2010

Yes, a few of us have had the courage and the resources (or in my case, stupidity) to try and do the job ourselves. But many of our neighbors do not have the ability to do it without help...and that's what Redevelopment is supposed to do. Don't you remember being squeezed about installing sidewalks? I sure do. Had I been forced to do that, my cottages would remain the tweeker havens that they were under previous ownership. They had $7,000,000 or more in the redevelopment fund and we are supposed to pave our own streets?

Dan, aren't you angry that the promises of the Vision Task Force could have happened with that Redevelopment money? You should be.

You're a young pup...you may live long enough to see Lowe's turn the downtown into Zanadu. I won't. You'd think I'd be gloating that I'm one of the last few lakefront resorts still able to receive guests, but I'm not. Those closed motels and resorts within a mile of me are harbingers of my future. Nice family people with money to spend on several nights lodging, some bait and tackle, some gas for their jet ski and a nice dinner at the Cactus, arrive in town and are literally frightened to stay...to let their children play outside. They leave early and will never return. Perhaps they'll stop at Lowe's on the way out of town to buy some lag bolts.

Coot
written by dano, March 28, 2010

I feel for you on that Coot. I hadn't realized we were promised redev funds. I'd love some free cash to increase the value of my property and beautify my area. The downfall I see is that we have to spend half the redev funds to fix our sewer woes so that leaves 3.5 mill give or take. We'll put in a handful of sidewalks & maybe not provide more than a few jobs. I've felt the bang for the buck could rescucitate our dire position with a shopping center. To answer Herb's ? I could care less that it's a Lowe's. I didn't think I'd ever entered one till my wife reminded me we went in one 4 yrs. ago. My hope would be that a number of businesses will follow suit to come here and Clearlake could actually have opportunities so people would want to move here or my kids could have decent opportunities for employement as they grow up. As this unfolds entrepreuners would dare to buy some of these funky buildings for sale and rescucitate the downtown area. My fallacy maybe but I just don't see a substantial revival of Lakeshore with such limited funds.
My guess as to why they've chosen to sell the property for the higher amount & then make the property buildable is because there's probly a 24k a yr difference in yearly prop taxes there & if we have to sell the property cheap & have them fix it up, the labor will come from who they know, it definitely won't be local.

...
written by bearer, March 28, 2010

The image you are describing is a picture of a moral decay if your customers are fearful to walk the streets. Societal shortcomings can not be cleaned up by putting "paint" on the problem. That can only be addressed by the local citizens banding together and driving the criminal element out.

There seems to be a lot of confusion in this because I am pretty sure I read that the sewage problem was being addressed as part of the shopping center on highway 29. If it isnt then I agree it should be. And yes any new development should pay the curbing and drainage costs just like we have all do if we put in new construction.

It still boils down to what can Clearlake sell to make money? What marketing ploy does it have? They get little help from the county in marketing unless you count the current we are the next Napa valley promo they are running. The Rotary is no help. They just eat breakfast or lunch and pat each other on the back over who they fined this week. They have no viable central business marketing plan for bring customers to our County. Chamber, see the Rotary and the lets be another Napa Valley crowd.

I have spoken with businesses in the Bay area that would love to transfer up here and get into a more peaceful setting. They all say the same thing. It is too time consuming and expensive to move here because of advocacy groups that hate growth. So no new jobs and a loss to the county tax base.

What I am saying Coot is that until the downtown area has something that is marketable other than new paint and a few gutters, 7 million dollars will not change anything other than the daytime outward appearance. The same people will be walking the streets scaring your customers.

In that frame of mind, I feel for you.

The town has something to market...
written by herb, March 28, 2010

It is the largest natural lake in California. The town is named after it. It is why people come here. They can find a Lowe's anywhere but that lake is unique and beautiful. As for the folks from the bay who won;t come start businesses here because of the advocacy groups...this is one of the least regulated places in the state. Compared to the bay area where there are layers and layers of red tape from the local town council to the coastal commission to the high cost of rent and labor...here the city hands you 7 million bucks and tells you no EIR is needed even though state law says otherwise.
I think these folks who say it is too tough to get a business started here are figmentsw of your imagination. Try pulling off a development like Lowe's in a Bay Area county without an EIR and see how far you get.
How many SC members you think there are in Sonoma, Marin, and SF counties?

The point you are missing is
written by bearer, March 28, 2010

these businesses are already in the bay and San J valley and have already gone through thee gauntlet of the advocacy groups. That is why they do not want to go through it again.

I know of 3 businesses that had an employees base of 50 to 100 that thought about Lake county decided to pull out of CA completely after talking to legal.

You guys be happy with your wineries that make millions of dollars an laugh at the sierra club while they operate old equipment that spews massive pollution in our clean Lake county air.

The standing joke at the vineyards is, we dont care how much it smokes, we have a farm exemption. And the sierra club worries about whether the toilet water will flow down hill and need an EIR to confirm it.

please name...
written by herb, March 28, 2010

...the companies you are talking about and prove they are real. Then tell us how you are privy to the standard joke at the wineries.
Or must they remain anonymous like yourself?

if I name the wineries will you get the sierra club to go after them
written by bearer, March 28, 2010

or are you just on a little power trip trying to make me look foolish.

Two of us can play the game you are playing.

And when I name them, will it prove after nothing happens as far as lawsuits, or protests or boycotting of products that you and the sierra club are politically motivated by party and not the goodwill of man.

Call me on it and I will mail you a list and expect you to read the names on the air to shame the growers and prove you are for the well being of the air and the polution on the ground.

You ready for the heat from the growers for being the one to publically outing them?

You really want to play this game?

Business marketing
written by tyler lee, March 28, 2010

Contacts have been made with Bay Area, Sacramento, and Los Angeles business groups and industries for many, many years now and I have never once heard the objection that "there are advocacy groups that hate growth". They do have objections to relocating here, though: 1) we have neither rail- nor airfreight services here; 2)there are few or no existing facilities which they might use until an expenditure for plant would be justified; 3) there is an insufficient affordable housing market for their employees (management can afford to buy in here: workers cannot). Ironic, considering that Lake County was once a retirement community for working-class people.
Possibly an appropriate expenditure of those wasted Redevelopment millions might have been to build a small industrial park on that contested property, to rent to startup and immigrant companies that would provide real jobs rather than the McJobs offered by the big-boxes. Look at what the town of Folsom CA. (otherwise known for the prison) did with acres of rockpiles on the edge of their community... Well, too late now.

My intent is to learn what is true.
written by herb, March 28, 2010

I am trying to find out if you are just making this stuff up because it sounds like it.
So if you can name these companies that used to be in the Bay Area with 50-100 employees that considered moving to Lake County and have moved elsewhere because of Lake County's "no growth advocacy groups," I will contact them and verify your story. And if they actually exist, actually considered moving to Lake County but didn't for the reasons you stated, and actually talked to you, I will say: That bearer guy is real and knows what he's talking about.
As for the standard joke at the wineries being about the Sierra Club, that sounds pretty far fetched. So make me the list and I will first verify it (I know quite a few people in the industry) and if it proves true,sure I will put it on the air and take the heat.

Ok Herb
written by bearer, March 28, 2010

Contact all your favorite winegrowers and ask them if their vehicles would comply with EPA and CARB rules if they were not farm exempt.

Ask them how many voluntarily use particulate filters to control smog producing emmisions.

When you are done with that get back to us with how many voluntarily admit they are polluters. I will then give you some links to follow up with.

As to my answering to you by proving myself to you I don't need to. It is up to you to prove I am wrong because you are making the statement I am making things up.


We have you, a fellow that supports a multi million dollar evil corporation attacking a small impoverished county to harrass its citizens versus me an average guy pointing it out.

If the Sierra Club would refund the money they cost taxpayers to the taxpayers they harrass I could respect them. All I see is an evil multinational corporation attacking a small towns citizenry during a major economic downturn.

So no, you do not deserve my help in proving me wrong.

I knew you made all that stuff up.
written by herb, March 29, 2010

And now you have proved it.

typo
written by herb, March 29, 2010

proven

we need a Lowes
written by Vogel, March 29, 2010

We need a Lowes to balance the costs of hardware in Clearlake. I bought 5 gable vents. At mendo Mill they are priced at $16.95 , at Home Depot in Santa Rosa the same product was $8.49. We need a Lowes to counter the price gouging going on right now and also to keep money spent in Clearlake.
Also i ask , why put in sidewalks and curbs on Lakeshore Drive?? So we can look at at all the empty buildings ?? There is NO business on Lakeshore that will be hurt by a Lowes.

It is not just about cheap gable vents....
written by herb, March 29, 2010

With cities like Clearlake subsidizing these outside corporations to the tune of 7 million bucks in taxpayer money, how can Mendo Mill compete?
We will also be paying for the impacts of this project many times over, in infrastructure, police services, traffic mitigations and more.
Saying that there's no need to upgrade the downtown because of all the empty buildings, is like saying there's no point in stopping poluting a source of drinking water because nobody drinks the water becuase it is poluted.

to herb
written by Vogel, March 29, 2010

I ask why spend the money on lakeshore drive when there are no businesses that serve the people of Clearlake. At least the Lowes will serve the people and STOP the robbing by mendo Mill. What Lake county needs is something that will draw people to the area. Putting in sidewalks and curbs in a dead area will do no good at all. Most of the problems in Clearlake and Lake county are the politicians. This election if they ask to re - elect then its time to re-ject and get some new blood in office. The present politicians have already proven they can not or will not do the job they were elected to do. And no it is not about cheap gable vents but every piece of merchandise in Mendo Mill is priced way to high to do the people of Clearlake any good. Stop the robber barons of Clearlake and get in some honest competition. Mendo prices are double of what they are at a box store. This must come to a stop.

Why spend money on Lakeshore?
written by herb, March 29, 2010

Because that is the town. The mrecants there are our neighbors. Their kids go to school and play Little League baseball with our kids. They have supported and done business in this town in good faith for years and never asked for a nickel of taxpyers' money to help them.
Now along comes a corporation from North Carolina who demands 7 million bucks of our money and a pass on following the same environmental rules that every other merchant in town has had to follow before considering gracing our town with their presence.
Their profits will leave our town in an armoured truck headed for North Carolina as opposed to the local vendors who recirculate the money amonngst us.
I believe there will be some new elected officals in Clearlake come November. The ones that are in office now agree with you. The city manager even brags about shopping for his hardware somewhere else.

Obviously
written by CobbMt, March 29, 2010

those opposed to the big box stores do not have property, in my case multiple to take care of. Price a water heater in Clearlake, then Ukiah. I save $150.00 and get a better product and warranty. So I drive and drive. When I ask for a discount I am told that they are bare bones now.

And at Home Depot they finance with regular 10 percent off coupons and no interest for 6 months. So I drive and drive. And save in my small busineess according to my accountant an average of 25 percent by not buying in Lake.

This in my case is substantial. I can see how renters and folks that do not make a living in property can say they will shop local. In my case the money finances my childs education, again not in Lake but Sonoma.

Where is the call for fair prices and good wages for those that work in the local stores. If they were paid fair wages, I would not mind paying the price to help, but the money goes to the owners not the workers.

My convoluted point
written by CobbMt, March 29, 2010

is that social justice and living wages should be part of the equation. Lowes and Home Dept pay well. In fact better than most all jobs in Lake, sure their entry level is low, but the room for advancement is real.

Costco is also a fair employer, and shares the wealth. Wal Mart is another extreme, and yet the only game in town.

Price the cost of groceries in Lake then compare to Costco. Another reason to drive and drive.

Why does gas cost so much more in Middletown than Lower Lake. I do not know the numbers but it is around 20 cents a gallon more in South County. Now price the groceries at the South County and compare to Safeway and Rays. Surprise.

Monopolies naturally rise their prices to what the local will pay.

If you are on the dole with Federal Food stamps where would you buy your food. Where you can get the most to feed your family. No different anywhere in the world. So in the moral realm is it better for the very poor to pay more to keep a local merchant in business and eat substantially less. This is lost in the equation. Same goes for a hardware store, Lake is full of folks on fixed income.

Should they pay less for a bolt and be able to buy a quart of milk with the savings. Or should they pay more to keep a local in the bucks to support a big boat and home on the Lake.

Social justice, is many things to many people. And the reason the Union movement began. Where is the social justice in advocating for cheaper goods so people can live better. I do not know but would like to hear a response that includes this. Saving the open space in Lake is a form of social justice. Now show me what is done to create better paying jobs in all of Lake. Everywhere. Is it fair that a bottle of wine cost 40 dollars a bottle and the field workers can not afford what we as a middle class take for granted. Should field workers be organized and paid living wages so that I may pay for a box of pears and feel good about the whole system. I wonder, and see nothing on this front in Lake County.

Obviously?
written by herb, March 29, 2010

I have property in Lake County that I have lived on and developed since 1972. I built my house with Mendo Mill and four corners and continue to maintain it that way. When I have a big project, I get a bid from a big box store and bring it to Mendo and they do what they can to match it. They usually come up with a decent offer and they deliver to my door 20 miles out in the sticks.
I am willing to pay a little more so as not to have this town become a strip mall on the highway while the downtown festers.
I won't set foot in Wal-mart. I won't shop at Lowe's. I support my neighbors. I shop locally. It is the way small towns have sustained themselves for years. Big Box stores are the way small towns have destroyed themselves for years.
When Lowe's and Walmart and Appleby's are the only stores left, none of us will have a choice any more.

high prices
written by Vogel, March 29, 2010

There is only one rerason that all merchandise at Mendo is priced so high , GREED on the part of the corporation that owns Mendo. The businesses on Lakeshore drive , what businesses?? The head shops ? The empty Goodyear building?? The Antique shop?>? The city makes it so difficult to open abusiness on lakeshore , I know people who have given up and opened elsewhere. It boils down to our good old boy network that incompasses the city council of Clearlake. Time to break the GOB up and get some fair businesses in this area.

The empty Goodyear building....
written by herb, March 29, 2010

You can thank Walmart for that. It was once a thriving loclly owned business
Lakeshore and Olympic and Old 53 will thrive if they get some attention. Look at Upper Lake, Middletown, Lakeport, Kelsyville...they are nice places to shop. They have sidewalks and parking and nice looking buildings and community pride. People go there for the resaurants and parks and cloting stores and free concerts.
Why would anyone want to shop on Lakehore Drive or invest om
Imagine what 7 million bucks in redevelopment money could do to change that.
As for yor assertion Mendo's prices are because of greed, I would like to see some evidence that it is not because of the costs for shipping items here and because Lowe's ands the like can buy in huge quantities, and get subsidized for millions by cities like ours.

Herb
written by bearer, March 29, 2010

I believe what you have proven is you are unwilling to ask the right questions and are running away from the challenge.

You pretty much discredited yourself as a go to kinda guy.

Reality time
written by bearer, March 29, 2010

Mendo mill is an out of county satelite store. OOPs shot yourself in the foot again.

You sure are doing a lot of damage control trying to defend yourself here. Face it Herb, you are part of the big corporation coming down on the citizens of a small poverty zone area.

You back the intrusion into lake county the muscle of multinational lawyers and greedy corporate influence.

You are a supporting a corporations attempt destroying the free will of elected politicians by being an activist for a multibillion dollar monopoly.

costs
written by Vogel, March 29, 2010

How can you say that a mark up of 100% is justified??? I could see a mark up of 2-3 dollars but 100%. I recently did some work to my home , I got a bid from Mendo and Lowes , Lowes beat Mendo by a bit over 650 dollars. This I think justifies me saying Mendos pricing is GREED

Vogel
written by hbhbglenn, March 29, 2010

I have shopped Mendo and Four Corners for years, and their prices are competitive. Luckily I don't have a gable and thus I have no need to vent it.

Cobbmt, your point is very convoluted. Gas prices are whatever they set them at because we allowed monopoly and therefore must pay whatever they ask. A lowes could accomplish the same thing by bringing in low prices and opperating at a loss until all other competing stores are gone. Then blog all you want, we will pay whatever they tell us to, or we will drive.

And our Gables might have to go unvented.

This has been an interesting blog. Those who see and understand the corporate threat, see the issue with clarity. Those who don't, want us all to relearn the lessons we have already learned over and over, most recently from walmart.

This council majority and the city manager are hellbent on ruining this town, and several of you seem to think it's a good idea.

Still waiting bearer...
written by herb, March 29, 2010

Before you change the subject or try to:
Do you recall that you gave your word:
"Call me on it and I will mail you a list and expect you to read the names on the air to shame the growers and prove you are for the well being of the air and the polution on the ground. "

I have called you on it and we are all waiting to see if you made this up or not.
We are also waiting for the names of the Bay Area companies that were going to move to Lake County with their 50-100 employees who backed out because of the Sierra Club.
Talk aboout putting your foot in it! Youo have been outed as a fabricator and you need to redeem yourself by coming up with some names and not some BS reason why youo won't produce the names like you said you would.
We are all waiting and watching.

Social Justice strikes a chord with me CobbMt.
written by herb, March 29, 2010

And if that is really what you are concerned about then I urge you to look a little deeper. Cheap retail goods and social justice do not always go hand in hand. In fact the opposite is often true. Loook at where the goods are made and by whom and how much is paid there. Look at the forstry practices of the lunber mills that these stores buy from. Look at (google) the multiple lawsuits filed by Lowe's employees nation wide based upon claims of unfair labor practices.
I am not sure where you got the idea that Lowe's pays well. Their average salary varies from $9.35 per hour to $10.45 per hour until you get to "department manager" level then you will make up to $15.25 per hour. There are only about 8 of those jobs maximum per store.
If you become a regional manager you get up there to $30,000 per year but there is only one regional manager for a huge geographical area. One can make as much as $60,000 working for Lowe's Inc. but not in reatail and not locally.

Herby
written by bearer, March 29, 2010

You were the one that stated you already had friends that were wine growers. I take it those winegrowers were make believe people that do not have telephones or addresses and you do not know how to get ahold of them because you made up the fact you know them, right. (talk about a run on sentence)

Ok, Now we knopw you do not have any friends you could call that grow wine, so, on the internet type "lake county wine commision", in your favorite search engine.

Then use your accumen to figure out who might grow grapes and use the contact feature on the website to contact them.

There are quite a few big growers around.

Or do you really need me to take a screenshot and send it to you.

still waiting...
written by herb, March 29, 2010

Atill waiting for you to keep you word bearer...
and we will keep on waiting until you quit the BS and do exactly what you said you'd do here in black and white.
We all read it. You challenged me and I called you on it and now youo need to show that you were not just making up "facts" like you are getting a reputation here for doing.
You said: "Call me on it and I will mail you a list and expect you to read the names on the air to shame the growers and prove you are for the well being of the air and the polution on the ground. "

I AM CALLING YOU ON IT!!!!

Your funny Herb
written by bearer, March 29, 2010

You are proving you my point that you are afraid to confront the issue I have presented you with.

I have given you all the resources you need by way of the electronic medium, in plain public view so you could not say you never recieved anything from me in the mail.

I have met the requirement of the challenge by saying:

1. Call your wine friends and ask the question.

2. Use the internet to pick a random name.

You are attempting to twist your refusal to meet the challenge publicly by utilzing the public options for your investigation.

I also notice
written by bearer, March 29, 2010

you do not deny shilling for a mega multinational corporation using its sheer corporate power to cause hardship on a poverty level community.

makes no sense...
written by herb, March 29, 2010

I am supposed to start calling winegrowers and asking them if their standard joke is about the Sierra Club?
And if they say no or don't know what I am talking about, that means you made it up?
Your statement: "Call me on it and I will mail you a list and expect you to read the names on the air to shame the growers and prove you are for the well being of the air and the polution on the ground. "
Are you going to send me the list you promised or are you going to keep trying to weasel your way out of it and hope that nobody notices that you do that whenever you are asked to back up your statements.
WE ARE ALL WATCHING! You didn't say you'd send "resources."
You said: "The standing joke at the vineyards is, we dont care how much it smokes, we have a farm exemption. And the sierra club worries about whether the toilet water will flow down hill and need an EIR to confirm it."
I say you made that up and asked you to prove oitherwise.
You said you'd send a list.
So send a list and quit trying to con everybody. We're on to you.

bogus bogus bogus bearer
written by herb, March 29, 2010

"...you do not deny shilling for a mega multinational corporation using its sheer corporate power to cause hardship on a poverty level community. "
Yes I deny that the Sierra Club is a mega mulitnational corporation.
I deny that I am "shilling" for anyone.
I deny that they are using corporate power to cause on iota of hardship and poverty.
It's all bogus. The city broke the rules. The people are calling them on it in a court of law.
A judge will decide. End of story.

your a denier arent you
written by bearer, March 29, 2010

Go up and read the entire conversation for what it was instead of parsing it.

The entire issue is that you and the SC are selective in your missions.

If you were an honest activist and not a partisan agendist you would read what I said for what it is.

That is, the SC looks the other way at wine pollution because of friendly allies and attacks on agenda where there is a potential for a conflict of monetary interest.

The challenge was you looking into the pollution and you know it.

Or have you completely sold your soul to the Sierra Club corporation and are unwilling to stand for what you say you believe in.

actully the entire issue
written by herb, March 29, 2010

is that you made up something and tried to pass it off as true.
The you challenged me asking if I want to "play the game" and "take the heat."
And I called your bluff and now youo are bobbing a weaving and squirming to save face when all you'd have to do is send me the list like you said you would.
But there is no list. And you have no idea what the standing joke in the wine industry is. You made that up.
And you don't know any businesses that would have moved to Lake County if it weren't for the Sierra Club. You made that up.
And the Sierra Club has not cost Lake County thousands of dollars in lawsuits. You made that up.
And you are busted by everyone who has followed this thread.
Now quit trying to snow us because we all know what you are up to.

I did challenge you
written by bearer, March 29, 2010

and you are backing away from the challenge.

You refuse to look into polution that affects air quality in Lake county.

You twist words to other than what was said hoping people are to lazy to read the entire 80 plus posts here.

Your a partisan schill for this attack on Clearlake citizens by an out of town multinational corporation.

You have no interest in anything that is not approved by the collective mind which means you do not care about pollution unless it becomes the popular and cool thing of the month.

We have your number now.

one more of bearers made up facts:
written by herb, March 29, 2010

He said (referring to the Sierra Club): "You are a supporting a corporations attempt destroying the free will of elected politicians by being an activist for a multibillion dollar monopoly."
Sierra Club's international budget is about $100 million dollars. About 1/200th of Multi Billions.

Vogel:
written by Old Coot, March 29, 2010

And when Lowe's has crushed Mendo-Mill, Four Corners Hardware, Day's Supply, etc. what will then prevent them from jacking up their prices when they are the only source in town? In other areas there is competition: Home Depot vs. Friedman's in Ukiah for example.

But I take the position that Lowe's (or Friedmans, the best big-box hardware store on the planet IMO) should be welcomed here providing that they pay their own way, just as you or I would have to do if we wanted to open a business here in town. Why on earth are we throwing $7,000,000 of our money at them to come here? I'll bet you the best dinner in town (that's at the Cactus, by the way) that the net increase in jobs from the Lowe's center will be tiny. Remember, when the other stores close, those employees get laid off, and Lowe's has a nasty habit of bringing in their own people for the higher paying jobs at their stores.

Bearer...dude...
written by herb, March 29, 2010

You could not possibly be more transparent. Lot's of people have been following this thread judging by the up and down votes.
Those that are just joining us will read your exact words and then your feeble attempts to un-say what you have just said.
Just send the list. Just name the companies. Just name the lawsuits filed by the SC.
It's not complicated.

We are all watching to see if you will keep your word or not. I am betting you will again try to change the subject, deny your own words, or attack my motives and tell me what I do or don't care about.
But you WILL NOT come up with the list of wineries that have the "standing joke" about the Sierra Club because you made it up.
You will not name the "3 companies" that you know that would have moved to Lake County and provided 50 to 100 jobs each if not for the Sierra Club ...because they don't exist.
And you will not tell us how the SC has cost Lake County hundreds of thousands of dollars in lawsuits because they haven't and you made that up.
And you will not explain to us what makes the Sierra Club an international "multi-billion dollar" monopoly because their international budget is on tenth of one billion dollars and they do not fit any definition of a monopoly...and ......you made it all up.

...
written by bearer, March 29, 2010

I have statement my position already.

I am not going to play your gothcha game when you rephrase the words and answers I made.

You are right, it should have been multimillion dollar monopoly but we are living in an Obama world where we talk trillions now instead of trillions, so I guess the billion became the new million.

I am also glad that your ego is boosted by people pushing plus or minus after a post.

I am a little more secure in who i am to care about a stupid popularity arguement.

correction
written by bearer, March 29, 2010

trillions instead of billions

Meltdown Much?
written by kd006, March 29, 2010

I just love the smell of of a good meltdown on a Monday evening.

Well bearer...of course you won't "play the game" that you started in your posts of March 28th....
written by herb, March 29, 2010

because there is no "standing joke" at the wineries about the Sierra Club. We have proven that you lied about that.
And there are no companies with 50 to 100 employees that would have moved to Lake County if not for the Sierra Club. We have proven that you lied about that.
And there are no Sierra Club lawsuits that cost the Lake County taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars. We have proven that you lied about that.
And your statement that the Sierra Club is a monopoly is also a lie by any definition of monopoly.
And your statement that the Sierra Club is a "multi-billion" (and now you say trillion) dollar corporation is also an easily documented lie.
So it is lie after lie after lie after lie from you followed by pathetic attempts to covert up the lies.
But you will keep trying to fake everyone out...but not a single person on here is buying it.

Poor Herb
written by bearer, March 29, 2010

Even when he tries to go for the kill in his post he can not get the words right.

Ill leave it to you to find the blatant lie in the preceding post to show how you twist and wrangle words and still fail.

You have a good time here with KD006. Please feel free to continue making yourself look foolish.

once again he's back trying to pretend that he hasn't been caught in a pile of lies
written by herb, March 29, 2010

But still no names of wineries laughing at us...or names of companies that would have moved here but not for the Sierra Club...or explanation of what makes the Sierra Club a "monopoly" or Sierra Club lawsuits in Lake County that have cost the taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars.

His story is that he never said those things but we have twisted his words. No wait...his story is that all those things are true but he doesn't have to prove them. No wait...his story is that he won't play that gotcha game...no wait his story is that I can't get the words right...

Enough of this.
But now you know that your untruths and factoids won't get a pass on here. You have been caught.

Herb
written by bearer, March 29, 2010

You are a hero in your own mind.

This is my last response to your little game.

1. Can you tell me which winegrowers you asked if they thought you were a joke?

2. what other group has the big money clout from secret major donors why might be dictating where the money is spent?

3. What other group is responsible for getting the laws passed that it now uses to sue?

4. I asked the question, you reframed it as a statement.

There is no gotcha here other than what is in your mind.

Enjoy yourself and I will see you on the next discussion that falls within your limited interest.

busted and desperate...
written by herb, March 29, 2010

bearer makes a last unsuccessful attempt to save face and finally...gives up in disgrace.

correction
written by bearer, March 29, 2010

the sierra club a joke

well then...
written by herb, March 29, 2010

laugh it up